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2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
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Author:  thelonious#9 [ Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Hi, I have been a long admirer of this forum and have used it addictively to understand so many topics in understanding how guitars function, theoretically and practically.

I wanted to thank all the hobbyists, repairmen, and luthiers for their patience, humor and passing on their knowledge to whomever shows the curiosity.
Any thoughts, critical or otherwise are welcome!!
Lutz Spruce top
Cherry back and sides
Ebony fingerboard
Claro Walnut Neck
Spalted Maple Binding
Ladder Braced- Upper transverse, 3 ladder brace, bridge patch and soundhole patches
26.5 scale length

Here's a couple video shorts I did for sound: Tascam DR-05 Stereo Mic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ-m4PPlvpM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL6pAUv4wao



The one wonder I have related to this guitar is:

If you had plans of body shape and scale length as well as ladder braced positions.
But you wanted to make it a 14 fret to the body instead of 12 fret to the body.

Would you change the body shape and/or braces and why?
What would you expect to hear differently?
I myself moved the bridge patch forward 1.5" and the rear ladder brace only forward 1".
How hypothetically have I adjusted the structural stability and tone by doing this?
Just curious for future reference.


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Author:  jack [ Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
looks and sounds really good! got a nice growl to her!!
Haans will be proud!
Author:  dzsmith [ Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Dang , that's incredible!
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Second build wow7-eyes
That's a whole lotta nice, build and playin'
Keep up the great work. [:Y:]
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Very nice, Scott, she's a real beauty!

Alex
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Nice! Any pics of the braces?

Thanks!

Glenn
Author:  Bobc [ Tue Jul 21, 2015 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Beautiful work Scott
Author:  Haans [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Nice, and I like the cherry. Just wish you would have carried the purfling through to the rosette.
As far as your 14 fret compared to 12 fretters, sounds a bit crisper and less full as far as I can tell from the recording. More of a focused sound. That would make sense to me as you have moved the bridge out of the sweet spot, forward. I would have changed the body shape by cutting some out of the upper bout and adding it in to the lower.
Moreover, I really don't see the need to have a 14 fret 12 Stella. They are just played differently. No one I know plays them way up the neck...
Author:  Quine [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Wow....nice job man
Author:  thelonious#9 [ Wed Jul 22, 2015 2:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Thanks Everyone,
Glenn, no unfortunately I did not take pictures of the top braces, definitely a foreseeable regret.

Zootman: Love your bindings, you do great work, thanks so much.

Haans: I hear you, I had fully intended to use the purfling into the rosette, I just couldn't manage bending it into the radius in any reasonable time. Tried cutting it in pieces and mitering it.
I would really have to watch someone who has relatively wide purfling and see them do this. The purfling section was hard enough truly.

I like your reasoning for the bridge placement, and now I must ask:
What goes into the sweet spot placement? The scale length relative to the lower bout width? Does distance to soundhole also factor in?
Do you know of any good books on the physics of the body movement and vibration qualities.
As for 14 frets, I realize these Stella's never had 14fret designs for good reason like you said.
If I had planned it from the beginning which I didn't I would have altered the body shape to keep the plans progressively true.
This was for me to play and I do like having the upper frets more easily gotten too. But I didn't realize it was an anomaly to Stella guitars.

Thanks so much for your response. As always it spurs on my curiosity and thinking.
Author:  Haans [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Scott, I did several by splitting the purfling in two with hot water and using a razor to split them. It is a VERY frustrating, tense and it is easy to screw it up and even make a total mess out of it. I spent time trying to get a little square in the empty hole with tweezers and #11 X-acto many times.

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LMI now sells the green stuff for purfling in two pieces, so it is much easier to do. Don't know where you could get the stuff you used...where did you get that?
I don't know anything about the physics of this stuff and always just went with what worked. I have modified Stella bracing, but have pretty much stuck to the basics of the design. That said, nothing wrong with what you have done, but does sound a bit crisp. Probably will break in to sound very nice though...
Author:  Cablepuller [ Thu Jul 23, 2015 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Great guitar..sounds sweet
Author:  thelonious#9 [ Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Hi Hans, I remember reading about your purfling trials and how frustrating it can be even for a well seasoned luthier.
But yours looks great, hopefully you will look at it for many years and not forgot how much patience and effort it took.
I think Bow River has similar purfling without the green edges but with blue red and white inner squares. Nothing out there with natural wood colors.

I knew I wanted this purfling and ended up talking to a friend who had done just a bit of wood inlay for fun. He had gotten out of his 3rd and hopefully final back surgery and wanted something to do while recuperating.
I have this same purfling on a vintage instrument (20's) and sent him pictures and measurements and some turning squares and he made it for me for nothing but wood and a big debt of gratitude.

Has anyone ever redone a rosette?

I may try to make some of this style, (never made herringbone marquis purfling or any other for that matter) there is not anything like it out there and I think it's pretty cool.

Anyway, my best to you and see you around the boards.
Author:  Brad Goodman [ Tue Jul 28, 2015 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Hi Scott, Great looking and sounding guitar.

LMI sells the rosette with the green color motif already bent for the rosette. That's what I use on mine -press the easy button there.

they also have the back strip thick enough to join between the plates.
Author:  Haans [ Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
thelonious#9 wrote:
Has anyone ever redone a rosette


Yes, I have done several, but not on a finished instrument. You would have to remove the neck for starters.
Author:  dnf777 [ Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
This forum is a great source of information and hep.....but a bigger source of humility!!
Absolutely Beautiful!
Author:  Freeman [ Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
I have a special fondness for guitars like that - yours came out really nice. How have you strung and tuned it at 26.5?

I built something similar a few years ago - 26.5 scale, usually tuned C to C but often some sort of open tuning down in the cellar. Strung with cables LOL but not nearly as heavy (or as low) as Leadbelly strung his. Much simplier than yours - Adi over mahogany, pretty simple purfling and rosette, bracing based on the hand drawn plans of Stephan Grossmans guitar and a few pictures of Todd Cambio's beautiful work. But I sure love that growl

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Author:  thelonious#9 [ Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Thanks a mil David, people's acceptance just about balance out the joy and worry that went into building it.
Don't know if I would ever try it again, ha ha.

Freeman, wondering when I would see your footprint, you are one of the few who I read a bunch when preparing the guts to start this project. You were all over the Stella 12's boards.
Thanks, for your interest and insights.
I got the La Bella .015-.080 cables as you put them.
Yup, tuned down to B and then have tried open G from there.
I think with the string calculators it is like a medium guage 6 string tension plus the octave strings. But it seemed important to not count the octave strings in creating the tension you want for playability. Just a guess, could be wrong but I like the feel.
I have a drawing for a 12 you might like, you plan to do any more ladder braced/hybrid?
Author:  Glenn LaSalle [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
thelonious#9 wrote:
I have a drawing for a 12 you might like, you plan to do any more ladder braced/hybrid?

I would love to see that! I just closed the box to a Stella Grand Concert the other day. I want to build a 12 next.
Glenn
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Author:  Freeman [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
thelonious#9 wrote:
Freeman, wondering when I would see your footprint, you are one of the few who I read a bunch when preparing the guts to start this project. You were all over the Stella 12's boards.
Thanks, for your interest and insights.
I got the La Bella .015-.080 cables as you put them.
Yup, tuned down to B and then have tried open G from there.
I think with the string calculators it is like a medium guage 6 string tension plus the octave strings. But it seemed important to not count the octave strings in creating the tension you want for playability. Just a guess, could be wrong but I like the feel.
I have a drawing for a 12 you might like, you plan to do any more ladder braced/hybrid?


Thanks for the kind words - I also tried the La Bella strings at B but have gone to 13 - 56 (basically the Elixer Kottke set) and tuned up a couple of steps. Leadbelly tuned to A or B (I don't remember but I think his scale was a full 27 inches). And yes, important to run the tension calculations but having the tailpiece does mitigate some of the potential top damage.

I'm not familiar with any boards devoted to Stellas - how about a link?

And I would love a copy of anything you have. Is it best to PM my email address or ??
Author:  giltzow [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Beautiful job. 2nd build - wow!
Author:  Haans [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Nice one Glenn!
I have to get that BBQ Bob over to Hoffman's to finish for me...
A Stella forum? Oh, that'd be rich. 6 members? 8? Try the 12 string forum over at UMGF...if it's not a dread-not Martin with extra light strings tuned to concert, they hardly know what it is.
I have Stephan Grossman's Stella at 26-5/8", but Neil Harpe says 26.5" for the auditoriums. My BBQ is 26.22".
Author:  thelonious#9 [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Yeah Glenn I didn't mean an actual Forum just meant all the threads regarding Stella's on here and possibly Acoustic "G" Forum (is it bad luck to mention other forums?).
Yeah I don't think I could handle the Martin forums, there is enough Martin love in the stratosphere already.
All the comparing Martin this to Taylor that, apples and oranges and tomatos and potatoes, Everything has to be brand spanking new.
Not bad, got all my angst out in 1 sentence.
It would be nice to have a strictly Stella forum, but a constant thread would suffice.

I have one follow up question:
"Settle in" is still a little foggy for me as far as allowing for it in creating the bridge height and neck angle.
How might you allow for settle in with ladder braced guitars compared to x braced, and 12 strings for that matter and for how long might it take ballpark to settle in?

I ask because my guitar is about a 2 months old, and with action at around .090-.065 my saddle is slightly above the "max height" of 3/16 above the bridge. Bridge height is 11/32.

Just wondering if I should wait a bit longer or look to remedying the situation if it is indeed affecting the tone/volume?
Author:  Haans [ Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2nd Build- Leadbelly Stella 12 String
Well, the big question on all that action, "potato chipping" and the rest is: How thick is your top? Next is what gage strings are you using? And tuning to? Bolt on neck? Oh, wait, you have a tailpiece...watch for sinking.
My tops are around .160 for the 12 fret auditorium with pin bridge, strings are .070-.016" and tuning is B or A. The last "Leadbelly" 12 is still good after 9 months, hasn't moved at all. I have also done some small mods to the bracing that beef up the area around the sound hole and in front of the bridge patch. I would just play the instrument if it is working for you. Keep checking the action, the straightness of the neck and sinking. Your action sounds pretty good, and while 3/16" over the bridge is a little tall, you still have to maintain a break angle with a tailpiece. Don't have a lot of break angle to work with on a flat top guitar. Harpe has said that pin bridges might sound a little better, but you need the thicker top. Tailpieces work well for archtop mandolins and guitars because of the high break angle.
As far as your angst, good job! Those suckered by the Corporate hype are pretty loyal and proud. May they all play their "harpy" 12s with lights tuned to concert happily ever after...just glad to see a few non-Martin 12 builders around.
I'm up for continuing this thread as long as we can maintain contributing posts. My contributions are somewhat limited as I am no longer building instruments, but I would be happy to contribute what I can.
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